tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN January 17, 2013 7:00pm-8:00pm PST
regrets, lindsay lohan, "two and a half men." we covered just about everything with charlie talking about his whole bad boy image. is that always the demon on your shoulder? >> yes. but also for me, people have come to expect a certain flair out of me. a certain type of behavior. was i living it for myself or for them? did it feel good? was it who i wanted to be? i don't think it was who i wanted to be. again, things got ahead of themselves and you start playing catch-up trying put the blocks back together. >> i thought a lot of it was very entertaining. i said to you at the time, i found some of the stuff on the tour, i began to think, i don't want charlie doing this anymore. >> i thought that after like show two. >> you were get annihilated for. >> brutal. >> the whole winning thing. >> it was -- not winning at all. i think what a lot of people don't realize. i was completely broke because, you know, when they kept my -- they fired me and all that. i didn't have any money left. so i was using the tour to
actually pay child support and mortgages and stuff like that. so i'm grateful for that. >> a whole new charlie sheen. eloquent marx tour. dare i say it, he's grown up. that's tomorrow night. it's a great interview. we'll be back at midnight with the latest on lance armstrong's confessional with oprah winfrey. "anderson cooper" starts now. it's 10:00 eastern time. we begin with breaking news on lance armstrong. after years of lying about using performance-enhancing drugs, after suing some, threatening others and ruining the careers of many who tried to expose his lies, the dethroned seven-time tour de france winner has changed his tune. he calls his whole experience, quote, one big lie, and says all the blame lies with him. he spoke, obviously, with oprah winfrey, taped a 2 1/2-hour interview which began airing tonight on her network own. the encounter began with oprah asking him rapid fire questions. the stakes got higher, the tension rose.
take a look. >> did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> yes or no, was one of those epo? >> yes. >> did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance. did you ever use any other banned substances like testosterone, cortisone or human growth hormone? >> yes. >> yes or no, in all seven of your tour de france victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope? >> yes. >> in your opinion, was it humanly possible to win the tour de france without doping seven times in a row? >> not in my opinion. >> lance armstrong finally confirming what so many people suspected. a lot of people actually knew the man whose back from cancer story made him a hero to so many
around the world in a word, bicycling's best known villain. a question many were asking tonight is why is armstrong finally coming clean? >> for 13 years, you didn't just deny it. you brazenly and defiantly de denied everything you just admitted just now. so why now admit it? >> that's the best question. that's the most logical question. i don't know that i have a great answer. i will start my answer by saying that this is too late. it's too late for probably most people. and that's my fault. you know, i view this situation as one big lie. >> one big lie. he said he didn't invent the culture of doping but he didn't try to stop it. a fairly breathtaking admission
about what he did to be the best cycler of his time. armstrong also led a team. he's been accused of running it like tony soprano, forcing others to cheat the way he was cheating. oprah asked him about that. here's his answer. >> the idea that anybody was forced or pressured or encouraged is not true. i am out of the business of calling somebody a liar, but if you ask me if it's true or not, i'm going to say if it's true or not. that is not true. >> contradicts what a lot of former teammates have said. that is lance armstrong. tonight, more on oprah's network tomorrow night. in safeguarding his lies, armstrong hurt a lot of people, including betsy andreu who joins us. her husband frankie was a former teammate. they and armstrong were close until they testified in a lawsuit alleging armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs. she's been watching the interview in our green room and does not want to miss a minute of it. with me is daniel coyle along
with tyler hamilton of "secret race" inside the hidden world of the tour de france, doping, cover-ups and winning at all coasts. also bill strickland and senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. first blush, what do you think? >> it's the most painful, successful therapy session in television. it's riveting. >> have you ever seen armstrong so uncomfortable, so nervous? >> he looks like he's strapped to the sift plane that's crashing. he's not giving it up. occasionally there are flashes where it seems like he's genuinely self-reflecting. a lot more pauses and hair splitting, as she said. >> do you think he's telling the truth, the full truth? >> no, i don't. clearly at parts -- in our book we recorded very clearly that armstrong was the kingpin there. he made a phone call to basically end tyler hamilton's career. he had the number of the uci president in his pocket. after tyler hamilton beat him in an important race before the tour. he had hamilton hauled in and
busted for doping. that type of power was what he wielded. >> armstrong seems to indicate he wasn't forcing people, pressuring people to dope but that goes against the testimony of numerous former teammates. >> exactly. and a partial confession is sort of the pattern. a lot of them will confess partway. maybe this is his partial and more will come out later. >> oprah went back to him and said is it possible the very fact you were doping, that would have pressured people to dope even if you weren't the one giving the orders. but from what you are saying, he was actually verbally pressuring people? >> exactly right. >> bill, what do you think of what you've heard so far. >> it's clear we're seeing someone learning how to tell the truth. >> not fully telling the truth? >> we've seen him say things for the first time that he's adamantly denied for more than a decade. so i don't think we're -- i don't think we're getting the full truth but i think, like dan was saying, it's almost like a therapy session. as dan knows with tyler when he
was writing the book, you don't get the truth the first time you talk to someone. unfortunately for lance, he chose to do this big the way he chooses to do everything. and he's doing it right in front of us. >> it's so interesting. i've been taking a lot of notes on this. he says he never threat end others. he wasn't the kingpin. the idea that he wasn't driving the ship on this just seems, on its face, just false. >> it's patently ridiculous. he absolutely was. he made all the decisions from the equipment to everything else so that includes the doping regimen. >> he called the shots on this? >> tyler hamilton gets a phone call. be on a plane tomorrow. we're going to valencia to do a blood transfusion. that's what happened. >> i want to tell you what he said about his personal operations. >> they said you and the u.s. postal service, cycling team, pulled off the most, his words, sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that the sport has ever seen. was it?
>> no. no. and i think he actually said that all of sport has ever seen. and oprah, it wasn't. it was -- it was definitely professional. and it was definitely smart if you can call it that, but it was very conservative. very risk averse. very aware of what mattered and didn't. >> the only example he could come up with, i guess, of a more sophisticated operation was east germany's olympic operation, i guess, back many, many -- >> '70s and '80s. >> so compared to a state government operation, it was not that sophisticated, but in the sport of cycling, bill, do you think this was the most sophisticated cycling operation? >> sure. they perfected it for that era. they were the most organized. they had the most money. and the widest reach. >> he also seems to be saying
that he wasn't doing anything that the culture wasn't doing. at one point he said that the epo generation began in the mid'90s. he was just sort of part of this generation. as you said, this was the most well-funded team. did they have access to stuff that other riders didn't have access to? >> they did. >> they did? >> that's the old level the playing field argument. when you have the doctor on an exclusive contract where you are the only one that can work with him, that's a bit of an advantage. when you have a private jet, billions of dollars and access to medicines other people don't have, that's all an advantage. >> amazingly, he says he didn't feel that it was wrong. oprah said, did you feel bad about it? no he didn't feel bad about it. did you feel you were cheating? he said he didn't feel he was cheating. he was claiming in his mind there was a level playing field because everybody had access to the same stuff. again, that's just not true. >> i think that's shows he's being honest. that was not a good answer for him to give. a smart answer would have been
more remorseful. but that's -- he's telling honestly how he felt. it's fascinating that he'll take all the guilt for himself and his own responsibility, but when it comes to the idea of, did you push this on other people, he's not willing to go there. >> coyle in your book, tyler hamilton kind of felt the same way, didn't he? >> he did. it's interesting. in a culture of corruption, when you don't understand what the other people are doing you assume they are doing more than you. and that's how you operated. you figured those guys were always cheating. so the cheating becomes an act of evening the field and you feel righteous. that's how they feel. that's why this is a story that's bigger than armstrong. it's how these cultures evolve. >> from a legal stanpoint, he won a libel case against a paper in england, i think it was. i mean, they are suing him. he's facing multiple lawsuits. has he opened himself up to more here? >> very much so. very much so. >> really? >> criminally, i don't think he faces any problem in particular. he admitted lying in his deposition. and that was sworn testimony but it was 2005 in texas. the stat uft limitations has
run. but civilly, the money back from the tour de france, the prize money, the libel suit where he got money from "the london times." but the biggest problem he may face is that floyd landis, one of the other riders on his team has filed a federal whistleblower suit. you can file and say, look, the federal government wasted money and i can prove it. he got $30 million from the federal government from when he was riding for the postal service team. if landis wins that lawsuit he not only gets the $30 million, he gets triple damages. $90 million potentially. and that is certainly a possibility. there are other aspects to the suit that may be more difficult to prove. but armstrong has bought himself a world of civil legal problems tonight. >> we're going to have more with the entire panel, betsy andreau as well around 10:30.
fascinating stuff. stick around for that. we'll see you guys in a moment. lance armstrong said he's spoken to her and her husband frankie, his former teammate. we'll ask her about it. follow me on twitter. i'll be tweeting tonight. up next -- more breaking news. late details on americans held hostage by islamic terrorists. conflicting reports on the status of a rescue operation by algerian forces. u.s. wasn't even told about it, according to our sources. we'll have all the latest on that. at 1:45, the aflac duck was brought in with multiple lacerations to the wing and a fractured beak. surgery was successful, but he will be in a cast until it is fully healed, possibly several months. so, if the duck isn't able to work, how will he pay for his living expenses? aflac. like his rent and car payments? aflac. what about gas and groceries? aflac. cell phone? aflac, but i doubt he'll be using his phone for quite a while cause like i said, he has a fractured beak. [ male announcer ] send the aflac duck a get-well card
more breaking news tonight. we want to get you up to date on the fast-moving situation in algeria. here's what we know. some americans have been freed. they've gotten out of the country. but others are still unaccounted for right now. algerian and foreign workers were taken hostage wednesday at a gas plant apparently response to france's offensive near mali. tonight we're getting word about what those hostages have been going through. what we know is the crisis is far from over. jill dougherty joins me with the latest. this has been a fluid story all day long. there's been a lot of speculation. it's unclear what's been going on. what's the latest you are hearing right now? what do we know? >> the latest is we believe -- we are being told by a u.s. official that it's not over. that they took a break, the algerian military, took some
type of break until tomorrow morning. but they will be back at it again because there are still terrorists there, and there are still hostages. and, anderson, there's some details we've been getting from u.s. officials about the conditions in which those hostages have been held. in fact, we were told that some of them actually had suicide vests put on them by the hostage-takers. pretty frightening situation. leon pa net athe defense secretary, said there were probably about seven to eight americans, but i have to say, you know, throughout the day, the numbers on all of this, where they are, who might be injured or any other condition is not really known. and the numbers of people who have been killed in this operation have really been all over the map. >> it's kind of odd to hear that they are taking a break. i mean if they've launched an operation to try to free hostages, the idea of taking a break in the middle of that operation seems very odd to me. i haven't really heard of operations where that has
happened. and i was also surprised to learn that the u.s. was not informed or given a heads-up before they conducted this raid, right? >> in fact, yes. the u.s. officials that we've been speaking to say that they were not given a heads-up that this was going to take place, and that has create someday problems. this one official that we spoke to said that they actually, the united states, had urged and cautioned the algerians to be very careful in carrying this out to make the priority really the safety of the hostages. but there is some frustration coming from both the americans and also from europeans that i've been speaking with who are saying, they haven't been getting very much information. they've been getting conflicting information. and certainly those numbers are testimony to that. >> jill doughert eappreciate the update. keeping them honest on a story beyond bizarre. manti te'o hoax. this football player, a dying girlfriend.
a team counting on him. notre dame, where back in september, the linebacker manti te'o makes 12 tackles, pow twherg irish to victory over michigan state even though he'd just learned he lost his grandmother and devoted girlfriend lennay kekua. notre dame would go on to play in the national championship. te'o would nearly win a heisman trophy. cue the hankie, put him on the cover. just like the feel-good hit of the summer, the manti te'o story isn't real. the girlfriend didn't die. she didn't even exist. now te'o, his family and notre dame say he was the victim of the hoax. the record, including te'o's own statements cast doubt on the notion that it's just that simple. and whether or not he was duped, virtually everyone who covered this story was. did they see what they wanted to see and not look any further than that? there's a lot of questions tonight. they saw the girlfriend lennay and her storybook meet with te'o. quote, their stares got pleasantly tangled.
then manti te'o extended his hand to the stranger with a warm smile and soulful eyes. that's the south bend, indiana, tribune, describing how te'o and lennay met three years ago. or supposedly. the article quoted the father, brian te'o, who says she would travel to hawaii to see manti. first his friends, then romantically. keeping them honest, te'o's own statement yesterday said that nothing -- nothing about any face to face encounters. we maintained what i thought to be an authentic relationship by communicating online and on the phone. so was brian te'o lying to the reporter or was manti lying to his father who told a reporter? manti's recent statement only muddies the water. listen to te'o speaking to espn back on september 15th. he talks about being reunited with his grandmother and with lenay. >> i miss them. i miss them. but i know i'll see them again
one day. >> not i'll finally meet her but see her again one day, implying he had seen her. if as manti says he was the victim of a hoax, does the relationship only existed online, why was he saying back then he'd seen her? also we know that manti says he found out lennay was fake on december 6th when he got a call with someone with lennay's number and voice who said she wasn't dead. why does he wait until the 26 tot tell the coaches at the school. notre dame investigates and gets a report on january 4th. why does it wait until yesterday, until after reporters deadspin.com run an expose to go public. and getting back to manti if he knew on december 6th that he'd been scammed, why two days later, did he once again talk about the girlfriend he's now supposed to know is fictitious as if she were real. listen. >> i don't like cancer at all. cancer -- i lost both my grandparents and my girlfriend to cancer. >> that was two days after he apparently got the call.
plenty to talk about with ted berk, also "sports illustrated's" senior writer michael rosenberg. spoke earlier tonight. tim, let's start with what we know. we know we haven't heard from him today. notre dame is still sticking by its claim he was the victim of the stammer, an online identity deception. what we don't know seems endless at this point. have you been able to fill in any blanks since we spoke last night? >> we know that brian te'o, manti's dad, was the source of that origin story, if you will. the 2009 meeting at stanford. so that sort of shifts where our attention goes to answers that we want. we started off wanting to know when manti found out. and now we really want to know who came up with that story because that's really important. that's part of the romance here. >> do we know who is running this hoax, whether or not manti was in on it, who the other players are?
>> well, our original reporting said that it was this tuiasosopo character and two of his cousins. we weren't told the cousins' names but when told one of them had to be female if he was using this to hoax manti te'o, we were told yes. we believe there are three people who are part of this. but we know that the tuiasosopo, lennay kekua portrayal online has gone on for a long time. now we've heard rumors from an alleged uncle of the tuiasosopos that said he has done this, this luteamia scam other times before in other places. >> michael, i know you want to be very clear. you don't know what happened. none of us know what's happened, i guess, until manti te'o speaks or until more information comes forward. in your gut, do you think he was a victim in this? do you he think wasn't a victim? do you think the truth lies somewhere in between?
>> i think it's somewhere in between. congrats to deadspin on outstanding work on this story. there is no reasonable explanation to any of this. i mean, it's all bizarre. so the question is, among the bizarre possibilities, what's the most reasonable? it seems more likely to me that maybe three people tricked manti te'o, duped him into believing this girl existed and then he then exaggerated the relationship for whatever reason, whether it was publicity or just got out of hand or something else. that strikes me as more reasonable than him being in on it and knowing she was fictional and fooling his entire team for a long period of time and starting it two years ago. i find that difficult to believe but it's all difficult to believe. >> also, i don't understand, if on december 6th he gets this call from her phone or number he associates with her and it's her voice saying it was a hoax, i'm not dead, and i'm not, you know, lennay, then why, two days later, does he volunteer on a
panel that his girlfriend has died. >> well, there is certainly no good explanation. i think if he did exaggerate the relationship and did believe she was real, all of a sudden, among other things he's thinking, what have i done here. this person isn't even real and you panic and you cover for yourself. you can also turn around and say, why would he tell notre dame officials this was all a hoax if nobody had reason to suspect it before. on top of that, why would he say he was not involved? wouldn't the co-conspis tor tuiasosopo be able to point to a bunch of evidence that he was in on it. >> if you hadn't broken this story, deadspin hadn't broken this story, would we even know about it? >> as we illustrated today in some posts on deadspin.com, there are so many contradictory tamts. as people talk about manti te'o and the draft they'd go back to those stories and eventually somebody would have found them. >> tim burke, i appreciate it. you guys broke the story. michael rosenberg, appreciate
you joining us. thank you very much. more on lance armstrong's admissions after years of denial that he doped while collecting all seven tour de france titles and bullying people. so is betsy andreu. armstrong has spoken with her on the phone and her husband. she joins the rest of our panel ahead. did she hear what she wanted to hear when he called. he also would not answer oprah's questions about what they actually spoke about. we'll talk to her about that next.
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mid'90s. not stopping until, he says, 2005. all the years of denials he told her were just one big lie. she grilled him on the spfrks, which banned drugs he used and the difference they made. >> did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> yes or no, was one of those banned substances epo? >> yes. >> did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> did you ever use any other banned substances like testosterone, cortisone or human growth hormone? >> yes. >> yes or no, in all seven of your tour de france victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope? >> yes. >> in your opinion, was it humanly possible to win the tour
de france without doping seven times in a row? >> not in my opinion. >> armstrong made that admission in a 2 1/2-hour interview. the rest of it airs tomorrow night. oprah said her questions would be no holds barred. they were. she asked him if he realized at the time what he was doing was wrong. listen. >> was it a big deal to you? did it feel wrong? >> at the time? >> uh-huh. >> no. >> it did not even feel wrong? >> no. scary. >> did you feel bad about it? >> no. even scarier. >> did you feel in any way that you were cheating? >> no. the scariest. >> you did not feel that you were cheating taking banned drugs? >> you know, i've -- at the time no. >> for years we've heard allegations armstrong ruined
careers and reputations when he was crossed. tonight he admitted to oprah he was a bully who unleashed his wrath on those two dared to tell the truth. she asked him how he could justify attacking even suing anyone for telling the truth. >> this is what doesn't make any sense. when people were saying things, david walsh, sunday times, emma o'reilly, betsy andreu, many others were saying things, you would then go on the attack for them. you were suing people and you know that they are telling the truth. what is that? >> that's -- it's a major flaw. and it's a guy who expected to get whatever he wanted and to control every outcome. and it's inexcusable and that's -- when i say there are people that will hear this and will never forgive me, i
understand that. i do. and i have started that process. i think all -- all of this is a process for me. one of the steps that i process is to speak to those people directly and just say to them that i'm sorry. and i was wrong. you were right. >> our panel has been watching along with us. betsy andreu, wife of frankie andreu, armstrong's former teammate, wanted to see it all before weighing in on what she heard. also daniel coyle is back with us. also big strickland, editor at large for "bicycling" magazine and senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. betsy, your impressions on what you heard tonight. >> i'm really disappointed. he owed it to me. you owed it to me, lance, and you dropped the ball. after what you've done to me, what you've done to my family and you couldn't own up to it. and now we're supposed to believe you?
you have one chance at the truth. this is it. if he's not going to tell the truth, if he can't say, yes, the hospital room happened, then how are we to believe everything else he is saying? we're already questioning him. >> you were in a hospital room and you heard lance armstrong tell doctors about all the drugs that he took? >> yeah, yeah. it happened. >> and he denied it happened up and down, and this was a key part of a lawsuit that he ended up winning. >> yeah, that he settled with. but if the hospital room didn't happen, just say it didn't happen, but he won't do it because it did happen. and if this is his way of saying -- i just don't want to go there, okay. we'll give it to her. that's not good enough. that is not being transparent. that is not being completely honest. that's skirting the issue. i want to believe that lance wants to come clean, but this is
giving me an indication that i can't. >> i want to play the exchange he had with oprah where he specifically is talking about calling you. let's play that. >> have you called betsy andreu. >> yeah. >> did she take your call? >> she did. >> was betsy telling the truth about the indiana hospital? overhearing you in 1996? >> i'm not going to take that on. and i'm laying down on that one. >> was betsy lying? >> i'm just not -- i'm going to put than one down. and i don't want to -- she asked me and i asked her not to talk about -- >> what you said? >> the details of the call. it was a confidential, personal conversation. it was 40 minutes long. i spoke to frankie as well. >> is it well with the two of you? have you made peace? >> oh -- no. >> okay. >> because they've been hurt too
badly. and a 40-minute conversation isn't enough. and -- >> yes, because you repeatedly characterized her as crazy. called her other horrible things. >> well, and i -- i did call her crazy. >> you did. >> i did. i did. >> if you were to go back and look at all the tapes of things you said over the years about betsy -- >> and i -- i think she would be okay with me saying this, but i'm going to take the libertiy to say it. i said, listen. i called you crazy. i called you a bitch. i called you all these things, but i never called you fat. >> that's one of the things -- >> she thought i said you were a fat crazy bitch. >> well, i guess why we know why i was all these years. putting up with that. how would you act, sweet as apple pie? >> somehow not calling you fat is any kind of -- >> consolation?
>> yeah. is -- when i heard that, my jaw dropped. >> he shouldn't have done oprah. this was too big to -- he shouldn't have gone on here. this is going to be a long process for him, but he's approaching it the wrong way. what -- that exchange right there, it has me furious. bill, help me out. i mean, what is going through his mind? >> it's fascinating to me that betsy and i have been talking about the exchanges. and it's just fascinating to me that he took that step, which everyone would think would be the hardest, to say i doped, i cheated it was all a lie, and yet when it comes to details about other people he just can't -- he can't quite get himself there. he called it a process. i think betsy said it's going to be a long process. dan alluded to it earlier. i think that's what's going on here, but it's just -- it's uncomfortable to watch this play
out on national tv. >> he's also indicating that he doesn't want to talk about the, you know, whether or not he said what he said -- you say he said in the hospital room because it was part of a private conversation and you asked for him not to say anything. is that true? i mean, would you mind if he talked about it? >> let him -- fine. he can talk about everything now. i'll talk about the intimate details of the conversation. he can talk about that. because i brought it up to him. we talked about that. and he dropped the ball. i didn't want to get into the -- to the -- it was a very emotional phone call. this is a guy who used to be my friend who decimated me. he could have come clean. he owed it to me. he owes it to the sport that he destroyed. and don't -- when he says he doesn't like the uci, he had the uci in his back pocket.
he owned the team. >> he would say that he wasn't the general manager, that he never forced people to do it. he never directed anybody to do it, to take -- to dope? >> okay, then why did they make sure frankie's contract wasn't renewed in 2000 when he wanted frankie to see ferrari and frankie said no, no, no, no. he rode the 2000 campaign clean. what was his reward? he didn't get compensated for the tour win and he lost his job and his career was derailed. that's -- that's going up against lance armstrong. going up a decade of being excoriated by him. and i was willing to give him a chance. and this is how he responds? it just doesn't make sense. >> i don't know if you can or want to answer, but did he in that phone call with you, did he admit that he had said that in the hospital room, that he had told the doctors about the drugs he had used?
or did you ask him? >> no, we -- we talked about it a couple of times. and he said he wasn't going to admit it. and i said why? >> what did he say? >> and i heard legal, which makes me think we have stephanie mcelvain who was in that hospital room when it happened. she went before the grand jury. did she lie before the grand jury? but we don't know because andre barat who was a u.s. attorney for the central district of california shut down this thing. so we don't have any answers. >> and that was -- this is a lawsuit that an insurance company -- >> well, no, this -- i think you are talking about the criminal case that just ended recently. >> exactly. >> the one thing i should say is that when u.s. attorneys stop criminal investigations, they don't explain why. it's not that -- this wasn't some benefit for lance armstrong. when investigations are dropped without charges, they're just
dropped without charges. they don't explain why. i can't tell you why it was done, but the fact that there was no public explanation isn't sinister or suspicious. >> do you think he was -- he wasn't -- he was refusing to answer that question for legal reasons? >> perhaps. but he did answer a lot of questions that were legally very incriminating to him. the fact that he admitted all this doping for all seven tour de france titles, that certainly is very damaging to him. legally. so why he might have drawn a distinction to that conversation versus others, i can't really answer because he did put himself in legal jeopardy several times. >> why do i think he -- >> why do you think he wouldn't answer that question? >> i don't know. i don't know. because the hospital room is where it all started. it's where it all started. and so him not answering that
question is going to infuriate people who know the truth. so if he really wants a shot of redemption here, he is really dropping the ball. i think a lot is because he wants to protect people. and i know that the -- barat doesn't have to explain himself at all, but when you look at the usada report and you see that there was witness tampering and drug trafficking and wire fraud and mail fraud. if you are a witness in barat's jurisdiction and you are going up against somebody who has money and power, i'd be really afraid. i don't know. i think he is still protecting people who were loyal to him. that's what i think. >> we've got to take a break. we'll have more with betsy, daniel coil, bill strickland and jeff toobin. also coming up, i'll speak with armstrong's personal assistant. i'm up next, but now i'm singing the heartburn blues. hold on, prilosec isn't for fast relief. cue up alka-seltzer. it stops heartburn fast. ♪ oh what a relief it is!
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used performance-enhancing drugs for each and every one of his tour de france victories and the people close to him who say his confession isn't enough. you deliberately did not watch the interview tonight. you knew ahead of time that lance armstrong was going to say things you probably wanted to hear him say for a very long time. why didn't you want to see this interview? >> i completely doubt his sincerity. i don't -- i don't believe anything lance armstrong ever says. i don't trust him. and i don't think that it was an appropriate venue for him to air his confession. >> do you -- i want to play you what he told oprah about how he felt about cheating. let's listen. >> was it a big deal to you? did it feel wrong? >> at the time? >> uh-huh. >> no. >> it did not even feel wrong? >> no.
scary. >> did you feel bad about it? >> no. even scarier. >> did you feel in any way that you were cheating? >> no. the scariest. >> you did not feel that you were cheating, taking banned drugs? >> you know, i've -- at the time, no. >> mike, do you buy that? if he didn't feel he was cheating why did he go through all this effort to hide it? >> lance is a different -- i can't relate to what he's saying. i can't relate to that kind of behavior. i know what's right and what's wrong, and i have always tried to lead a correct life. that's not the way that he does. he had a reputation for being that way as a teenager.
and for a brief period when i worked for him, i thought that that was all over and that he had grown up and i quickly found out that was not the case. i don't believe him. yeah, it's really tough to hear that, anderson. i had no intention of listening to his voice ever again. it's painful. >> betsy, i want to bring you back in, and our panel. when lance armstrong says that he wasn't the kingpin, that he, you know, was just a guy on the team, does that seem completely disingenuous to you? >> it does. because he was co-owner of the team. he made decisions on who was fired, who was hired, who got paid what. he had the connections. you didn't see any of the other riders having their political connections, cozying up to the politicians, getting the corporate sponsors backing them, being in so cozy with the federations, with the governing bodies like lance. so it's completely disingenuous,
and i think it's a way to make him distance himself from being this -- the leader. >> so when he says that this wasn't that sophisticated an operation, that it was professional, it was conservative it wasn't the biggest doping operation in all of sport, he says east germany had a bigger doping operation. the olympics ghak the '70s and '80s. i mean, it sounds like he's being disingenuous. he had access to drugs that other people did not have access to. he had access to funds that others didn't. >> that's exactly right. the facts are out now. when you take a whole team and put them in a hotel room and put plastic wrap over the toilet so there are no microphones in there and put tape over all the smoke detectors in the room and do transfusions for the whole team in the room in the middle of the tour de france. i'd say that's reasonably sophisticated. and they always stayed ahead of the curve. each year it was slightly different. each year it was two bags of blood, three the next. it was a constantly moving
target. an innovation race. and armstrong with ferrari and his other director had the best minds in the game. >> in this interview, and bill, also, he says that his comeback in 200 -- i guess 2009, 2010 that he did not -- that he wasn't doping at all for that. and that -- if that's true. dr. ferrari was still on the salary. why would that have -- do you buy that, that he wasn't doping then? >> no. ferrari was known for one thing and one thing only. and that was to dope riders. but if i could just get back to what dan said about -- and what you said about lance being the kingpin here, frankie was never involved in the transfusions. frankie was never involved, and that cost him his career in the sport because lance deemed him selfish, arrogant, not willing to do what it takes. so i just wanted to add that to what -- >> in this interview he categorically is saying he never
would have done, that he never directed anybody. he never would have had anybody kicked off if they didn't want to dope. he never pressured people. >> lance also wouldn't admit to this hospital thing happening and oprah could have follow upped and said yes or no. yes or no? what is it, yes or no? >> if he's taking his entire resume, which is a pretty big resume, really, and circling little bits of it and admitting to that but omitting huge, huge portions of it as he goes through this with oprah. >> can i ask a question? why would he admit the seven wins that he was doping but the '09 and '10 when he didn't win, why would he say he didn't dope then? what's the thought process there? >> what i've seen with the riders that i've spoken with and the research for the book is that they don't want to admit the whole thing at once. it's too heavy. it's just too heavy to admit the whole thing at once. you want to preserve a little good guy. they admit it part way and over time, returning it to it many times, looping back. i remember with tyler, he said
we only doped may and june. we looked in march and discovered he had doped in march. >> were you in a tent doping and then there were fans waiting outside. he said like, i don't have any memory of that. he said he couldn't remember how many people he'd sued for making allegations against him, which is -- >> he was telling the truth there. and i think -- he wants to give himself some credibility. he wants to say, look. i still was a magnificent, great athlete, even when i didn't dope, if we're to believe he didn't dope. because when he finished third in the tour de france, that's pretty darn good. and if he's saying he did that clean, then that's pretty remarkable. so he wants to give himself some credibility here. bill, what do you think? >> it seems important. i've talked to him quite a bit about those comeback years. i wrote a book about his comeback.
he was always adamant to me then and now that he was clean. there's a bio passport. they took some samples. but he is really holding fast to this. there are just certain things that he just does not seem ready to give up now. and maybe ever. that's what we're going to find out as the months and weeks and years go on. >> it would be bizarre for him to then later on say, well, actually, i also lied about something i said to oprah winfrey. i mean, we've seen this before. john edward did this famously when he came clean on the affair with rielle hunter, but refused to admit he'd fathered the child with her and then his coming clean interview wasn't really a coming clean interview. i also want to play what he said about another former teammate who came forward to accuse him of doping. this was george hincapie. and close observers always thought once this guy testified against lance, this was over. here's what he said.
>> my fate was sealed. i think for those people that were my supporters who i am assuming have left, he was the -- they could have heard anybody say anything, and if george didn't say it, they say, well, george didn't say it, so i'm sticking with lance. and i don't fault george at all. a lot of pressure with that. but, yeah, listen. george is the most credible voice in all of this. he did all seven tours. i knew him since i was 16. we practically lived together. we trained together every day. and for the record, we're still great friends. we still talk once a week. i don't fault george hincapie. but george knows this story better than anybody. >> we have about 30 seconds before break.
betsy, i see you shaking your head. you don't buy it? >> no, i don't buy it. >> which part? that they are great friends? >> it's hard to know what to believe now, you know. has he been talking to george once a week? since when? two weeks ago? who knows. >> we've got to take a break. more with betsy and daniel and bill strickland, jeffrey toobin as well. you name it...i've hook. but there's one... one that's always eluded me. thought i had it in the blizzard of '93. ha! never even came close. sometimes, i actually think it's mocking me. [ engine revs ] what?! quattro!!!!! ♪
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but hurry. these savings end soon. i'm glad we had adt. [ male announcer ] adt. always there. we're back with our panel. just in the minute we have left, overall, bill, do you think this was a mistake? >> i think it was an amazing first step. i think he failed in a lot of key places. he came through in a few big places. i think he's got a lot of work to do. >> big mistake. >> and betsy, your thought? >> lance can still redeem himself, if he will tell the truth, again. one more time. but he's got to meet with the united states anti-doping agency. he's got to meet with wada and he has to be 100% honest, truthful. tell them everything. because there is no way he pulled off the biggest fraud in the history of sport by himself. >> this was a big gamble for him.
do you think it was a mistake? >> i think it was a mistake. these are conversations that probably should have been in private. to do it in front of millions of people without a net. that's how he's operated his whole life to take these big gambles. i don't think this worked. he does have a place to go forward from. it definitely can't get worse. >> legally, jeff? >> i think he's in big trouble, civilly. he supposedly has $100 million. he's going to have a lot less than $100 million when this is all over. >> we've got it leave it there. betsy andreu, i can't imagine what it's like for you tonight. appreciate you being here. daniel coyle, bill strickland, jeff toobin. also mike anderson who we spoke to briefly. "erin burnett outfront" is coming up after this break. [ male announcer ] ahh... retirement. sit back, relax,
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